The Omniverse was never created. It is everything there is, infinite and eternal (as energy/matter is not created only changed) You could think of what we call “our universe” as something that was created, via a big-bang etc, our universe might/likely have had a beginning.
Most if not all theists believe in the existence of a force outside of the universe that created it. This force itself, they reason, was not created, it was always there. This force is the creator, and referred to a god.
Deists believe such force once existed but no longer does, as this force (or god) designed and created the universe and then ceased to exist. They also call this force god or divine.
Classical Pantheism equates this creating force, the thing that creates but itself was not created (i.e. god) with the Omniverse literally. Thus, the Omniverse was never created, and is a creator.
Let’s examine this “different” concept more … an example or two:
1)
A Christian is 100% in agreement that God was never created.. that god created the universe (and life in it), in 7 days.
A Classical Pantheist is in agreement that god was never created … however, here, “god” is the “Omniverse” itself in all it’s mystery, eternity and infinity.. thus, the Omniverse is god, and the Omniverse was never created. The Omniverse is “everything that is”, “all there is”, including physical things like elements and stars and life and non physical things like time and the laws of physics, essentially “one thing”, thus has always been there, and itself constantly changes via astronomical and intergalactic events and when entire universes are created.
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.. How does that sound so far? peaked your interest? Great! let’s look at this from a different angle:
2)
Theists: If you are a theist, thus willing to accept the notion that “something out there exists that is eternal“, do you see how this “eternal thing” itself could be the one thing that is the collection of everything there is, the Omniverse? There is no need for a different eternal creator external to the “everything”. By definition of the Omniverse (eternal, infinite, all there is), you can’t have anything outside of it, thus a creator that creates the omniverse can’t exist.
The Omniverse is “everything there is”, infinite and eternal, hence, nothing (including a god) can exist outside of it, as there is no-thing such as “outside-of” the Omniverse, let’s say this again, there is no thing outside-of the Omniverse. Thus, “if” there was a god-like creator, it itself must be a part of the Omniverse, not external to it, by definition.
Scientists: The challenge most scientists, today’s Atheists and skeptics, have is to think of an eternal being, or an eternal force that created everything, an anthropomorphic thing, a god, a plan/or planner behind everything, or intelligent design. Once you say “this thing is eternal”, “something was created”, such sentences immediately conger the response: “but it’s impossible, matter cannot be destroyed or created so it must have come from somewhere”.. or in other words, they might think “who made this eternal thing or creator?” .. These questions are very appropriate to ask, and the notion of an anthropomorphic creator that made the universe according to some design is one worthy or rejecting, as atheists do.
Scientists are very analytical and bright. If you are one I suspect that you are beginning to see the importance of definitions, and how defining the Omniverse offers an opportunity of a different perspective to many of today’s opposing arguments.
By having this omniverse, or “everything-thing” be eternal we are also agreeing that matter or energy was not created and cannot be destroyed.. in other words, matter or energy have always been there, a part of the Omniverse, was never created and is always there in some form, thus no beginning, no end to this everything i.e. eternity.
3)
Two common argument points you will hear in today’s culture are:
1- Theists tend think that a creator was needed, that everything needs a start, to be created, like a plant comes from a seed, but who created the creator, who planted the seed?
2- Atheists ask why is the creator human-like, has a personality, emotions, goals, face, beard, arms and a judge’s gavel? and if there is a creator who created it?
Pantheists agree wit Atheists: there is no transcendent creator god, anthropomorphic, judging god, or a god that extends outside the universe, one that exists in heaven who created the physical universe(s), there is no external creator that created everything but itself was not created.
Pantheists agree with today’s Theists: there does exist an eternal force/divinity/thing/oneness/unity/everything-ness (whatever people call it), mysteries exist in the world, that our (local) universe likely had a beginning (but not from nothing), matter is not the only thing there is and perhaps unseen forces of energy exist. Pantheists disagree with theists, the universe did not need to be created by a separate eternal god entity.
Classical Pantheism defines the “Omniverse”, thus offering a mind-set that can bridge the gap between theists and atheists.
The clue is to think “Omniverse”, not universe, not a creator. Think large, think of the one thing that is a collection of everything there is, an Omniverse that we study and observe, one that contains matter, possibly antimatter, many universes, time and space, and many unknowns.
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.. ok, is that making more sense now?
Let’s yet again look at this from a different angle:
4)
Theists look at the universe and think there must have been a creator who preceded the universe. They are then willing to accept the idea of a creator entity that itself never was created. All of this is not necessary if they realized that the Omniverse is eternal (i.e. not created), that the omniverse could be thought of as the creator (or container) of local universes.
This is not a large leap for a theist, they have already accepted the notion of an eternal being, the notion of “eternity” is not new to theists. Except, what they see as eternal is different than what a Classical Pantheist sees, rather than seeing the Omniverse as the eternal entity they assume (imagine) a god figure that is eternal (and external to the omniverse – an impossibility by definition) who created the universe.
This god creator is not needed, in fact it cannot exist based on our definition of the Omniverse, as the Omniverse is everything and thus nothing is external to it, and as the Omniverse was not created since it has always been there, never created and cannot be destroyed, but could change.
Just as the theist creator god was never created himself (or herself) neither was the Omniverse created herself but any other creator, it is such by the definition of the word “omniverse”.
Theists and Atheists get stuck in their arguments due to their view of what the Universe is. They accepted the mainstream definition of what the universe is. The idea of a multi-universe universe is no longer mystery or philosophy but a scientific theory..
When one views that everything there is, is the Universe, and this Universe is purely physical, they confine themselves by their own definition, a narrow one, might I say strongly influenced by the Abrahamic religions.
Due to this definition, theists find it necessary to have a non physical transcendent god in order for this physical universe to exist and in order for spirits, life force, and the after life to exist, these things require not only a creator god but a transcendent god.
Atheist take an opposing side saying that no angels, miracles, gods, spirits, life force, spirituality, unseen forces, or even creation itself existed. Since even the word “creation” is seen strictly from an Abrahamic perspective, another narrow definition.
Some atheists might acknowledge we do not know where matter (universal matter, dark energy, gas, the elements, hydrogen, energy..) came from, where the big bang came from, where “energy” first came from! They further might disagree but really cannot deny the possibility of other universes or other dimensions being in existence. They limit themselves by only accepting what mainstream acceptable scientific doctorates say exists and everything that was not “proven” scientifically really doesn’t even exist. By doing so, they rob themselves from experiencing the mystery and beauty of life and our universe.
5)
Both Atheists and Theists are stuck in the physical Universe, Atheists are stuck in the physical universe because that is where our science is at today, theists are stuck in the physical because that’s the story the bible tells.
They define the universe as everything there is yet somehow this “everything” must have come from a source? this is illogical if you consider that matter cannot be created. They define the universe as everything there is yet they struggle with the concept of infinity and eternity.. But how can something be all there is without being infinite?
Where is the truth?
The truth is always there, clear for you to see, I had a gut feeling that the universe was an omniverse, all there is, even when I was 6 years old.. I kept asking “but if this man-like-supernatural being (god) has created things, who made him?” …. We are born very open minded, very curious, skeptical, and experiential then we get sucked into the duality of defined concepts and man-made limitations.
Today, people are stuck between the two main-stream views: The Theists see things one way, the Atheists see things totally the other way … while the true reality is in between these two opposing views, non-dualistic and unifying.
6)
In reality, by definition, the Omniverse is unlimited, too large to comprehend (theists consider god to be too large to comprehend). It includes every-possible-thing that could, has, have or will ever exist in existence itself, physical, probabilistic, thought-form, emotional, chemical, material, dimensional, the dimension of time itself, the dimension of space, matter and possible other forms of matter, energy of all kinds, quantum probabilities and astronomical machinery, and everything we know and still have not discovered, you name it… it has it, as it is everything there is.
Can anyone disagree with this philosophy?
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The Omniverse is the Quantum Physics theoretical Universe and it is the Classical Pantheist universe
This Classical Pantheist Omniverse dissolves the disagreement between the Atheist and the Theist
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The Omniverse was never created.
What we consider as our universe was (likely) created (i.e had a beginning).
The Omniverse is a constant, eternal, and infinite thing
Mysteries within the Omniverse abound; everything we do not understand scientifically is a mystery.
Science cannot disprove the Omniverse’s existence, but it cannot prove its existence either
..
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This is how the Ominiverse, itself was never created but is constantly in the process of change.
and where you and I belong and currently are
thinking, talking and
living
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in love,
Updated: 12/18/2010 – 06/30/2011
A related article: What About Creation?
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December 18th, 2010 at 7:28 pm
[...] Read: But who created the universe? [...]
June 30th, 2011 at 6:50 am
[...] A related article: But Who Created the Universe? [...]
July 5th, 2011 at 11:25 am
Hmm… I’m afraid after all that I still can’t distinguish between the presentation of the atheist’s view and that of the Classical Pantheist. It seems like it hinges around the universe/omniverse distinction, and the omniverse seems distinct from the universe insofar as it allows for the unknown. Are you sure universe theories don’t really include the unknown? That sounds unlikely to me.
Also, the characterizations of both Christians and scientists seem problematic. Christians are not 100% in agreement that God was never created and that the universe was created in 7 days. That’s Creationism. There are other Christian viewpoints that take a looser interpretation of Genesis. Even the Catholic church officially endorses Darwinian evolution as consistent with Catholic doctrine. As for scientists, they are not “today’s Atheists and skeptics.” It’s true that a much higher percentage of scientists are atheists and skeptics, compared to the general population, but there are many other viewpoints in the scientific community.
July 8th, 2011 at 6:47 pm
Thanks for your comment. I appreciate all the points you made. You are correct, Pantheism hinges around the concept of the Omniverse and the acceptance of the unknown as part of our reality. Along with nature’s role in ones spiritual experiences, as nature is one path to seeking wholeness and awareness.
Regarding the universe theories, I think for most people, mainstream ideas of the universe, are basically of a physical universe, and when talking where the universe came from we hear theories like the big bang, or creationism. It seems, to me at least, that most people think “physical” when they think of what the universe is or has within it especially within scientific theory, many accept an end to the universe (i.e. edge) or even if considered to be endless (because it’s spherical) they try to estimate its “size”, and many scientists seek to find where and how the universe was made or came to exist. All these are not ideas compatible with an infinite eternal all-inclusive thing Omniverse.
Rather than using a term like the Universe, I went with the Omniverse which is a term used by some in theoretical astronomy. I find it much more appropriate than universe in portraying something that is everything, literally includes and is everything there is.
Some out there might think of the universe is being infinite and/or not solely material, but many if not most in the mainstream think the universe is created by a god and/or started with a big bang, even the current science tells us that “at a certain point in the distant future, the whole universe will be a uniform, isothermic and inert body of matter, in which there will be no available energy to do work. This condition is known as the “heat death of the Universe”.” this quote is from a Wikipedia article on entropy.
As you see, when people think of the universe they are talking physical, and possibly not infinite or eternal (to these people that’s what god is, infinite and eternal).
By definition an Omniverse must be “all there is” and thus infinite, and thus all-inclusive including not only a material universe but any non-material things be it universes or energies, multiple universes, infinite universes or dimensions, natural orders, and many unknowns.
Finally, some theorize that our universe is a local universe, that is one of many other in existence, like bubbles within bubbles. Since theories or ideas exist today in that this universe might be one of many others, naturally when I wanted refer to something that is “all there is” I could no longer use the word “universe” I must use a word that is more inclusive than a universe, a word that includes all these theoretical universes.
I agree about your point on Christians who are “not 100% in agreement that God was never created and that the universe was created in 7 days.” I shall write an article to explain my view. But in a nutshell, it is my belief that unless you believe a 100% that Jesus is the son of god, that he died, and was risen and that God is the father, and son and holy spirit you are not a christian. I know statement is bold and will likely generate a lot of disagreement, but I believe in accurate definitions, how could label themselves Christian and not follow the basic premise of Christianity? How could a Muslim claim to be Muslim and not believe that there is one God and Muhammad is his profit?
Regarding the Catholic church going with evolution, I think they just make these statements to appear moderate and modern, I do not take anything the Catholic church seriously, to be honest. These organized religions like the Catholic church with their hierarchies, dogma, rules, excommunication are not in the business of empowering people, rather in keeping people dependent on them. This, again, is only my opinion.
I agree a 100% with you on scientists not being “today’s Atheists and skeptics”. I know many people in sciences (i.e. scientists) who are Christian. I did not mean to equate all scientists to being atheist nor that all skeptics are scientists.
I enjoyed thinking about your comments, thank you. I will be working to improve the text on this site to deliver a clearer message of what I think Classical Pantheism is. Feedback from people like you helps me refine the way I deliver this very simple idea of an Omniverse and Classical Pantheism.
July 18th, 2011 at 4:28 am
>it is my belief that unless you believe a 100% that Jesus is the son of god, that he died, and was risen and that God is the father, and son and holy spirit you are not a christian. I know statement is bold and will likely generate a lot of disagreement
Actually I think that *is* what all Christians agree on without controversy, if I’m not mistaken. Variance in interpretation aside, those are the core doctrines that have been identified. The nature of the creation story in Genesis, however, is less unanimous.
As for the universe/omniverse thing, I’m starting to understand you now. It’s becoming clearer.